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anonymous

From Somebody (unverified) Tue Oct 21 15:47:01 2025 UTC

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The less dependencies - The better

I really like the idea of minimizing the amount of external dependencies in the project and I have probably found a better alternative to GNU/BSD Make for C projects

[github link removed]

The idea is that you write all the building intructions in C itself. That way you only need a C compiler installed as your only external build-time dependency (one program as opposed to two).

#define NOB_IMPLEMENTATION
#include "nob.h"

int main(int argc, char **argv)
{
    Nob_Cmd cmd = {0};
    nob_cmd_append(&cmd, "cc", "-Wall", "-Wextra", "-o", "main", "main.c");
    if (!nob_cmd_run(&cmd))
        return 1;
    return 0;
}

and the building process is as simple as this

$ gcc nob.c -o nob
$ ./nob

It can also do parallel builds & caching, like Make

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From Andrey Vikt. Stolyarov profile Tue Oct 21 16:05:00 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: The less dependencies - The better

Sorry, I will not visit GitHub and will not let references to any of the "free" web-based repository hostings appear on this site, unless it is really needed (e.g. to propose a fork of an existing project)

anonymous

From Dmitry (unverified) Wed Oct 22 11:59:54 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: The less dependencies - The better

Compiling build scripts means extra build-time dependency when cross-compiling (unless you have some multi-target compiler)

But it's interesting question: what is better?

1. Have external make-like utility (which is external dependency)

2. Have make functionality inside language

3. Have buildsystem inside source code

Second option seems to allow have less dependencies and useful when program not very complex, but makes language implementation more complex

admin.jpg's userpic

From Andrey Vikt. Stolyarov profile Wed Oct 22 13:00:20 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Re: The less dependencies - The better

I strongly dislike the second option, just like any 'compounds' like IDEs. I even generally dislike ideas of linking of modules in any other manner than with the linker. Compiler must do its own job, which is to take the source code and produce the respective object code.

Anyway, this is more an abstract question, as we don't have more or less useful languages other than C and C++, and chances are we'll never have.

anonymous

From redditor (unverified) Mon Oct 20 22:31:49 2025 UTC

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Some questions

> Older ethernet equipment won't work faster than 100 Mbit/s, but, believe it or not, there are no higher speeds in the Internet

But just today, I was downloading a 4K movie with a speed of ~1Gbit/s. Does it not count as a valid use case?

> Besides that, no additional conditions must be imposed on the communication partner basing on the fact the partner can't or doesn't want to communicate using encryption

On a few darknet sites, I have seen their owners write "Here is my email and my PGP key, any messages not encrypted with it will be ignored" in the contact section, presumably to maximize privacy, since they are doing high risk business, that is deemed very illegal by the governments. Does that mean they are also wrong?

Btw, I am not trying to argue here or debate any of the taboos in any way, I am just interested in the opinion of the author.

admin.jpg's userpic

From Andrey Vikt. Stolyarov profile Tue Oct 21 15:54:40 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Some questions

> But just today, I was downloading a 4K movie with a speed of ~1Gbit/s

Generally speaking, I don't believe you (unless the movie resides in a local proxy cache or the like, which means it was not really from Internet). However, even if this really was a case, things like this don't happen very often, and if they do for a particular user, no one disallows to use "modern" active network equipment if it is really needed.

> On a few darknet sites, I have seen their owners write "Here is my email and my PGP key

I see no problem here at all, for two reasons:

  • this scenario doesn't involve TLS/SSL;
  • this is a matter of consent between end users, not between SMTP servers, and things like this don't force anyone to implement STARTTLS (which is a nightmare) within their MTAs.

Actually, using PGP/GPG in messages is a kind of thing which is only paid for by the people who need it. With STARTTLS being made mandatory, too many innocent individuals have to pay for it, that way or another. To my mind, mandatory STARTTLS, should it gets widely adopted, will make the email service as such unusable.

> I am just interested in the opinion of the author.

Today I had spare time so I responded, but this is exactly what the "preamble" on the taboo page is about.

anonymous

From Andy Smoker (unverified) Sun Oct 26 12:50:01 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Re: Some questions

Downloading 4K videos is literally part of my daily routine. After finishing all my paid work tasks, I start downloading an episode of a series or a movie and want it to finish downloading by the time I’m done cooking dinner so I can watch it. I use torrents for downloading, so the speed - up to 800 Mbit/s - comes from many peers. I prefer 4K because I watch movies on an 80-inch TV.

All this is just to say: what’s rare for one person can be part of someone else’s everyday routine.

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From Andrey Vikt. Stolyarov profile Sun Oct 26 12:52:53 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Re: Re: Some questions

And so fucking what?

anonymous

From Sandalous (unverified) Sat Oct 11 07:22:10 2025 UTC

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Old computers

I have a pile of old computers in my home. The oldest one is rk86 compatible factory made in early 90s. There are also things from pentium III onward, but now what? I got a lot of electronic junk and can use it and what should I do with it? I didn't turn the rk86 one for two years, and only used it for one week after purchasing.

admin.jpg's userpic

From Andrey Vikt. Stolyarov profile Sat Oct 11 09:24:20 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Old computers

I don't think there's much of practical use for rk86. As of pentium3 and later, please take a look at the FEDAnet project. It is now at its early development stage, but if we manage to achieve anything real there, older 32-bit computers (pentium2 and later) will be sufficient for everything but key generation, and key generation is only needed to start a new node. The master key may also be generated offline, so it is possible to keep kinda safe of all these IntelME, AMD ASP and the company (e.g. completely wipe and reinstall the machine which was used for key generation, before reconnecting it to networks).

BTW, as of rk86, do you have software for it, audio-encoded? And how do you store these? At my moscow home, I have a rk86, too, but I didn't turn it on for like 20 years :-) I'm affraid that the compact-cassette on which all the soft is recorded, won't work after all these years. Anyway, I now doubt if I ever get there again, so this question is more out of couriosity.

anonymous

From Sandalous (unverified) Sun Oct 12 02:33:15 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Re: Old computers

I have rk86 compatible, and the tapes which came with it, but I still didn't solder an audio cable to connect it to audio-jack. So I did use a thermal printer to print assembly program with hex codes and entered them from keyboard. The program itself was written and compiled from a modern computer (made in 2010, 8G RAM) on emulator first. And yes, it did work exactly as on the emulator, which I consider a success.

Otherwise I would just use an audioplayer, like smartphone or mp3 player or something, like I did on ZX Spectrum clone, if I return to rk86 and decide to play more. I also doubt original tapes would work, but as far as I get it, software they had was already dumped by others and available via internet.

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From Andrey Vikt. Stolyarov profile Sun Oct 12 09:06:07 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Re: Re: Old computers

> I still didn't solder an audio cable to connect it to audio-jack

> print assembly program with hex codes and entered them from keyboard

Errrr... this takes a lot more effort than soldering a cable. Well, by orders of magnitude.

> I would just use an audioplayer

I would, too, but what I don't have is, well, what to play. That is, rk86 programs, audio-encoded and represented in some digital form (not mp3, I guess; I doubt if mp3 is okay for this purpose, but smth. like wav or raw format should serve). Several years ago I tried searching the Internet for those, and found nothing.

anonymous

From Sandalous (unverified) Sun Oct 12 09:39:42 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Old computers

There is something magical in entering raw machine codes which you understand perfectly because you made them and then they work. Those programs were small, so entering them from keyboard wasn't all that annoying.

For ZX Spectrum mp3 worked fine, I think it should work even better for rk86 with more primitive modulation. The programs in binary form can be easily converted into audio, for example emu80 which is the emulator I use can first import program in digital format, then export it as wav audio file. Then one can try to use digital player to import them on a real machine. There should also be stand-alone converters from rkr or other such formats into audio.

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From Andrey Vikt. Stolyarov profile Sun Oct 12 09:55:04 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Old computers

> emu80 which is the emulator I use can first import program in digital format, then export it as wav audio file

I didn't know this. Well, if I ever have a chance to touch my rk86 again, I'll give this way a try. Thanks.

anonymous

From Sandalous (unverified) Mon Oct 13 05:51:13 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Old computers

I am surprised, though, why the simple idea that digital format can be converted to/from audio didn't come to your mind.

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From Andrey Vikt. Stolyarov profile Mon Oct 13 09:13:52 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Old computers

This idea is obvious, what is not obvious is that the emulator is capable of doing it.

anonymous

From Sandalous (unverified) Wed Oct 15 04:58:45 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Old computers

I'm not sure if my previous reply here was sent or not, but stand alone converters exist, for example rk2wav, it's windows but source available and I have tested it, it compiles for Linux with no changes at all, except iconv from cp866 to UTF-8 (or in your case koi8r). I have also tried to load resulting wav into emu80 and it worked.

admin.jpg's userpic

From Andrey Vikt. Stolyarov profile Wed Oct 15 08:33:19 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Re: Old computers

Definitely it was sent, but I doubt it may be of any interest for this site's supposed audience.

anonymous

From hissssst (unverified) Wed Oct 8 01:52:43 2025 UTC

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Download and Execute

When I was reading the article, I found myself in the devil's advocate group, haha. Well, I agree with the idea of "Download and Execute" taboo, but I find the "everything with loops" definition kinda strange and missing the whole point.

Let me explain my idea. First of all, every information is interpreted by the computer and it then somehow changes or access other information on this computer. For example

  • Ring 0 code can execute without interruptions
  • App with root access reads whole PC memory
  • Userspace app can access and change everything it has rights to
  • Javascript code inside browser can allocate any amount of memory and access everything exposed in the runtime API
  • .png file can be interpreted into some bitmap which can be displayed

You see, JavaScript is bad not because it has loops, but because it's API is very very wide and poorly limited, I think that not many people can tell for sure what it does. But it can just consume a lot of memory and fingerprint your browser. And .png files are good because they are usually interpreted into some table of rgb colors which is displayed somewhere on the screen. And some compression formats of, lets say, image files contain loops essentially, but they are fine, cause their interpretation always results in just the bitmap. And, for example, svg files are bad because they can require network access.

So, you see, this criteria of "Contains loops" is useless and strange. Instead of making up some arbitrary technical criteria, I'd make the criteria which reflects the core idea of "Dowload and Execute" taboo, and it goes like this: "Abilities of the information require corresponding permissions". That's it. I'd even rename the taboo to this statement

And lets apply it to the information examples to see how it fits in: download and execute (or show) .png is fine, cause .png is just a sophisticated resizable bitmap. Download and execute (or show) .svg requires permission to access network, cause, well, this format lets user access the network. Download and execute (or show) HTML? This is a hard one, let's say that good browser will ask permissions lazily: if gets to .png, it will just show it, if it gets to .svg, it will just check for permission to access the network. Download and execute JavaScript code without loops? Haha, that's where my definition shines. Imagine a user browsing a web, who opens some website and a browser kindly asks the user something like "I don't know what this thing does, it can consume all your memory, it can collect a unique fingerprint, it can start accessing any resource in the web, almost like a userspace app, so, wanna run it?". Most likely the answer will be "No, and remember my choice for future JavaScript". That's it, the whole story.

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From Andrey Vikt. Stolyarov profile Wed Oct 8 10:29:11 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Download and Execute

With your comment, you clearly demonstrate two things. First, you, being on someone else's territory, prefer to ignore the explicitly imposed rules, because it is clearly stated on this site that none of the explicitly enumerated taboos will ever be removed from the list, and we are (well, I am) not interested in discussing them. So perhaps I should have never made your comment visible, at all.

However, the second thing you demonstrate is more interesting, that's why I decided to write this response. Basically, it's this:

> JavaScript is bad not because it has loops, but because it's API is very very wide

This statement (on which all your reasoning is based) is simply, plainly and completely wrong. JS is bad because it is a program code, no matter what API the interpreter has and what capabilities the code has access (well, documented access) to. API is about what things the code being interpreted can do in a way intentionally provided by the interpreter. Limiting our consideration to this, we make fundamental and grave mistake. E.g., one may consider PDF format is okay because interpreters of PDF don't (intentionally) provide any access to the world outside of the interpreter's own small universe, which only consists of the pages to be rendered.

However, the reality is that we can never be sure there are no exploitable bugs in the interpreter. Never ever. Furthermore, real-world interpreters are always complicated enough so that we actually must assume that detection of an exploitable security hole in any of them is basically matter of time.

Taking this into account, we must realize that interpreters that analyse any data downloaded from an external (untrusted) source are dangerous, even the HTML renderers. This danger is much reduced (but not eliminated completely) in case the interpreter is intended to just make some 'appearance' basing on its input, and the danger increases sharply if the input format is intended to define some behaviour (as opposit to appearance), as it is, believe it or not, much easier to create working exploits when the attacker has access to a ready-to-run interpreter on the remote side. And here is the real thing. Revealing an exploitable hole in an HTML renderer may be of no help for the attacker because, although mathematically possible, it would likely take too much effort to do something real, and the time of people capable of writing exploits costs enormously high. Revealing an exploitable hole in a turing-complete interpreter is a jack-pot. Not because of its API, but because it is much much easier to control the victim program if it implements a turing-complete interpreter: it already has most of the things the attacker needs, so there's no need to catch it on the revealed hole, again and again, just to build up what the attacker needs on the remote side. Instead, the attacker just sends the program for the interpreter. It is always much easier than to compose machine code and push it through the small hole.

And yes, the margin is exactly where it is highlighted: on finite computers, turing completeness is never achieved, but access to any loop constructs is effectively just the same thing as having an interpreter of a programming language.

Please note that I'm not interested in wasting time discussing this. BTW, your last paragraph is a bunch of nonsense, but I won't comment on it.

anonymous

From Parthen (unverified) Wed Oct 8 12:48:24 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Offtop

Is there any other sites outside stolyarov.info which have the link to this site? Like, where are this kind of guys even come from?

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From Andrey Vikt. Stolyarov profile Wed Oct 8 13:43:41 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Offtop

It is unlikely to me that such links exist. Usually it takes some time for a site to become known.

anonymous

From Yury K. (unverified) Wed Oct 8 14:27:59 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Offtop

I've found several posts on Reddit and one on 4chan, so I guess this guy came from those posts.

anonymous

From Anonymous (unverified) Wed Oct 8 16:26:05 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Re: Offtop

Can you please share the links to those posts? I would like to read their comment section :).

anonymous

From Yury K. (unverified) Thu Oct 9 07:49:19 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Re: Re: Offtop

Well, I just searched on Google for "rebuildworld.net" (with double quotes).

But anyway, here are the links. I also added Y Combinator. Note that the 4chan one is especially trash, and probably all of them use JS (no idea if it's required to see the content or not).

  • https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1o114bv/
  • https://old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1o0bish/
  • https://boards.4chan.org/g/thread/106817357/
  • https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45518124
anonymous

From Parthen (unverified) Wed Oct 8 16:34:40 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Re: Offtop

Any links? Web search didn't give any results :(

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From andry0980 profile Wed Oct 8 20:27:59 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Re: Re: Offtop

I'm not the author of that comment, but I do just a few queries and found this:

(JavaScript warning)
old.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1o114bv/rebuild_the_world_project/
boards.4chan.org/g/thread/106817357/save-programming-industry

Does anyone know who calls Andrey Viktorovich as a russian Stallman?

anonymous

From Parthen (unverified) Thu Oct 9 16:09:40 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Offtop

Funny enough, but DuckDuckgo didn't give all this results when I posted. Does everyone here use Google? :)

>Andrey Viktorovich as a russian Stallman
Linux.org.ru

anonymous

From Anon (unverified) Sun Oct 12 15:22:53 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Offtop

Sometimes Google is better than DuckDuckGo.

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From Andrey Vikt. Stolyarov profile Sun Oct 12 17:13:25 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Offtop

Google may return more results, and the results may be more relevant. This in no way means Google is 'better'. Actually, Google must be given no right to exist.

anonymous

From Vibit (unverified) Thu Oct 9 05:35:11 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Re: Re: Offtop

Just conclude rebuildworld.net put in quotation marks and start the search.

There's no point in dragging links to Javascript sites here.

anonymous

From Garkier (unverified) Thu Oct 9 08:30:46 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Re: Re: Offtop

Here they are:

https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1o114bv/rebuild_the_world_project/
https://boards.4chan.org/g//thread/106817357/save-programming-industry
anonymous

From hissssst (unverified) Thu Oct 9 00:20:35 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Re: Offtop

No, your assumptions are wrong, I've been following Stolyarov for a while, mostly on his website, purchasing his systems programming books when he asked for the support because of cancer. I've learned a lot of good ideas from him. One of the most important things Stolyarov showed me was his "Информационное насилие" video series which got me thinking about the whole marketing problem from the different angle.

In the end, I've never completely agreed with Stolyarov on any topic, but it was this kind of disagreement which was more insightful than any solidarity and blind following. And yesterday I've just tried to contribute to the idea, to give my feedback.

You say that I came from 4chan or Reddit, and by doing this you imply that I am some kind of troll, and you also start the discussion about persona, not about the subject, which is just a boring offtopic and should be moderated. But it was not moderated by Stolyarov and given that his response was (for the lack of the better word) unwelcoming, I can see that being wrong (in your opinion) is considered a form of trolling. It's a shame, so I will just leave.

anonymous

From Yury K. (unverified) Thu Oct 9 11:20:37 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Re: Re: Offtop

Indeed, my guess was wrong, and that's fine. Your comment just looked like it was written by a non-Russian-speaking person, so it seemed more likely that you came from outside the circle than that you were following Stolyarov's sites directly.

But you're also wrong that I was implying you were a troll. I only said that there are external sources from which new people might come — that's it.

You might be surprised, but I also don't fully agree with many, or even most, of the taboos on this site. Still, I'm interested in reading alternative opinions and arguments. I just know there's no point in sharing my views on these sites, because Andrey has explicitly said many times that his sites aren't open to comments with differing opinions on these topics.

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From Andrey Vikt. Stolyarov profile Thu Oct 9 13:48:43 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Re: Re: Offtop

> purchasing his systems programming books when he asked for the support because of cancer.

When I knew about my cancer in February 2025, all my books were totally sold out for years. Furthermore, purchasing my books in bookstores never had anything to do with supporting me. What a nonsense.

anonymous

From Vibit (unverified) Thu Oct 9 05:39:06 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Re: Offtop

You can read the comments on these websites with popcorn.

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From Andrey Vikt. Stolyarov profile Thu Oct 9 13:50:07 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Re: Re: Offtop

I'd better enjoy my popcorn without reading those comments.

anonymous

From Yerror (unverified) Tue Oct 7 15:06:23 2025 UTC

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Typo

http://www.rebuildworld.net/projects.html typo in "contemporatry".

Also, wouldn't "cult" fit better than "sect" in here? http://www.rebuildworld.net/taboo/#rust_lang

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From Andrey Vikt. Stolyarov profile Tue Oct 7 15:13:38 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Typo

> typo

Fixed, thanks

> "cult" fit better than "sect"

To what I feel, for cultists it is not universally true that they love to argue. Sectarians always do.

anonymous

From Yury K. (unverified) Tue Oct 7 10:23:42 2025 UTC

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Some typos

The "principles" link on "join us" page is broken. Also on taboos page I've noticed a typo: "cahieve" (should be achieve I guess :-)).

anonymous

From Anonymous (unverified) Tue Oct 7 08:08:33 2025 UTC

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Non-existent page

On the page join_us.html In the last paragraph, the highlighted word "principles" contains a link to a non-existent page.

anonymous

From anon (unverified) Tue Oct 7 02:33:42 2025 UTC

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Invalid link

On the join us page there is invalid link to the taboos page (http://www.rebuildworld.net/taboo.html, it should be http://www.rebuildworld.net/taboo/, i believe).

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From Andrey Vikt. Stolyarov profile Tue Oct 7 13:10:32 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Invalid link

Hmmm, this is the most reported error of the new site, it was reported twice by email, three times here and even one time in Jabber :-)

Thanks to everybody for paying that much of attention!

anonymous

From Parthen (unverified) Mon Oct 6 20:52:06 2025 UTC

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Broken link

http://www.rebuildworld.net/taboo/unicode.html

>Whatever choice you pick, be sure not to get affected by the so-called 'locale settings', as locales are prohibited on their own.

Link is pointing on http://rw.croco.net/taboo/#locales

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From Andrey Vikt. Stolyarov profile Tue Oct 7 13:05:36 2025 UTC in reply to this comment

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Re: Broken link

Damn :) The problem was that this nonsense works on my home computer. Fixed, thanks.


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